| Pagine: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Methods for verifying "native language" claims Iniziatore argomento: psicutrinius
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Samuel Murray 
Paesi Bassi
Local time: 07:26
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Afrikaans
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| @septima: These scales are for foreign languages | Aug 6, 2012 |
septima wrote: My guess is that many are identifying themselves as "native" based on criteria rather like those of the Interagency Language Roundtable (ILR) scale (see ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale ).
A similar concept of a scale is used in the EU (although the two scales differ quite a lot):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_European_Framework_of_Reference_for_Languages
Many languages have proficiency tests, though not all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_language_proficiency_tests
The problem with these scales is that they are meant to grade proficiency in a foreign language, and not in the person's own language. I understand that one can want to assume that proficiency in one's own language would be equivalent to the highest grading, but in practice that is not so. A translator's skill in a language must be good enough but does not need to be excellent. Proficiency and nativeness are related but a native speaker will not necessarily be a highly proficient speaker or writer in his language.
[Edited at 2012-08-06 19:21 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Regno Unito
Local time: 06:26
Da Portoghese a Inglese
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JKalina wrote:
it might prove useful to expand the native language field on the profile and allow for second or third languages (as opposed to both native and foreign) to accomodate for cases like Jennifer's and Lisa's. Whereas English is obviously a foreign language to me, Portuguese for you two, if not native, is at least a second language. It might be that some of the false 'native language' claims are made out of a sheer lack of an appropriate category for certain speakers.
Kalina
I can’t speak for Jennifer (although I think she has made this point already), but I don’t have any need at all to claim Portuguese as my native language. I may have been brought up bilingually and lived in Brazil for more than half of my life, but it doesn’t make Portuguese my native language. I presume my profile and website make it clear enough that I have a very high level of competence in the language and I have no wish to stretch the truth, nor do I see much benefit in calling it a “second language”, which could confuse matters still further. The message that so many of us have been trying to get across is that even the very highest level of proficiency in a language does not make it your native language, if you have not been living and breathing that language from earliest childhood to the present day. Since so many people on this site claim not to know the meaning of the term, then testing and verification become the only option.
| | | | JKalina
Local time: 07:26
Da Inglese a Macedone
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Yes, I figured as much (from what you've posted on both threads so far), that's why I said 'cases like...'
I'm not entirely certain, but I vaguely remember somebody else on the previous thread (and perhaps Samuel on this one, correct me if I've misunderstood, Samuel) suggesting something along these lines: that someone with a background similar to yours might feel a bit differently and pick 'native' simply because it... See more Yes, I figured as much (from what you've posted on both threads so far), that's why I said 'cases like...'
I'm not entirely certain, but I vaguely remember somebody else on the previous thread (and perhaps Samuel on this one, correct me if I've misunderstood, Samuel) suggesting something along these lines: that someone with a background similar to yours might feel a bit differently and pick 'native' simply because it feels closest to the truth; not because they're out to deceive. However, the proposed questionnaires, especially if they're visible to outsourcers, might create the necessary niche for this particular group, without anyone resorting to half-truths or, well, lies.
It was just a suggestion, though. If it's deemed irrelevant or of no help by the majority, we just forget about it and move on.
Perhaps, in order to avoid confusion, there should be a clear definition of what 'native language' does and does not entail when you select your native language(s) upon registration. Disclaimers such as: 'Does not include the language(s) you feel you have native-like proficiency in' and similar. It would not deter liars, of course, but it might help those who are not entirely certain as to where they fit in exactly...
Maybe I'm being a bit naive again in believing that at least some of these misrepresentations are not deliberate, but results of misunderstanding or misguided self-assessment...
On a side note: what verification methods does the current system have in place? I'm merely asking because I've declared a single native language (and a small one at that) and my 'N' is still gray. Is it because I'm new or because I'm a non-paying user? Or both?
This post turned out rather longish, so I'll stop here. And thanks, Lisa, for your input. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | native language as we see it | Aug 7, 2012 |
Diana Coada wrote:
1. No matter how much you polish and adapt the questionnaire above, it will only tell me what my native language is according to you, and not me.
2. This is a commercial site, not the IOL directory - why do you care what people claim?
3. Why do you worry so much about what I consider to be my native language?
4. There are different ways in which to define native language: based on origin, identification and
based on competence/usage. For all I know, these three definitions might apply to three different languages in many cases.
Over and out.
Hi Diana,
To your points:
1. No matter how much you polish and adapt the questionnaire above, it will only tell me what my native language is according to you, and not me.
There has to be a definition for "native language", granted. But if you look at what the majority (even on the internet) takes native language to be, it's something clearly different from "non-native". Non-native language to the followers of this thread means (I believe) "mostly consciously learned" after the critical period in childhood (which can vary from person to person) whereas native speakers acquire their skills generally beginning in childhood (mostly in early childhood but some argue the cut-off point for being able to become a native speaker is around 15-16 years of age).
In addition, you have to be immersed in that language and its culture for years to be able to reach the "complex competence" level of an adult native speaker.
I would argue that a questionnaire as suggested by Janet will not only tell you what your native language is according to other native speakers but also to you, as long as you agree with the definition of native language that we have put forward and we believe is valid.
2. This is a commercial site, not the IOL directory - why do you care what people claim?
Because currently, many are claiming native languages in order to get certain jobs which are limited to native speakers or because they simply want to be found as native speakers of one, two or more languages in the directory, thus attracting clients who are looking for "native" speakers.
As we have discussed and concluded in the other thread, "native language" is one of the important criteria used by clients to find translators who can provide translations for native readers of the target language, in the best possible idiomatic way. This is especially important in fields such as marketing, business and advertising. But native language proficiency is also a great asset when it comes to very complex or technical texts because the slightest mistake can have serious consequences. Of course, in order to achieve the best result you also have to have an excellent command of your source languages, and some translators indeed claim to be and possibly are native speakers of two or more languages.
The fact that this is a commercial site, and I want to add, the largest translator portal in the world, makes these distinctions especially important. Because of the vast number of translators and interpreters advertising on this site, correct information in profiles is important in order to provide a professional environment in which true native speakers are clearly distinguished from non-native speakers, especially those with great language deficiencies.
Your point seems to be that lingual "competence" is much more important than "nativeness". We cannot officially gauge "competence" here; it would be even more difficult than to verify native languages and I wouldn't want that anyway. Who would you have as judges? Non-native speakers?
German is my only native language - but that doesn't preclude me from offering services into English. Clients who are looking for a non-native speaker of English to translate from German into English can specify that in their search.
As a verified native speaker, I have the advantage that I don't compete with liars who are incompetent in any regard.
On the other hand, "native language" doesn't really tell anyone how good a translator is but it's much more likely a "native speaker" is a good translator than someone who lies about their native language, and because of it, could be lying about other things.
Most of the time, texts are expected to be translated by a speaker of the target language. If there is a guarantee (through verification") that the translator is indeed a native speaker, the client will most likely be happy and so will the translator.
If you can't be sure that the translator is a native speaker even though you expect him/her to be (not verified), you open the door to abuse and believe me, abuse will happen.
3. Why do you worry so much about what I consider to be my native language?
We worry because anyone can claim a native language and lie about it if there's no verification, and again, it will happen because "native translators" are the ones sought out often in the industry and because it is (therefore) a major criterion on this site (and it should be, as we here think - see my thoughts above). Whoever claims native languages and does so rightly doesn't have to be afraid of "verification"; on the contrary, verification will give him/her an additional advantage, to be clearly distinguished from liars trying to cut into her/his turf.
4. There are different ways in which to define native language: based on origin, identification and based on competence/usage. For all I know, these three definitions might apply to three different languages in many cases.
That's where we differ in our approach. We agree what native language means (the language acquired from a specific point on in your childhood (there is a cut-off age), acquired not by only consciously learning it but by mostly "absorbing it naturally" although we consciously add competence by learning in school - but also in the native language environment. And by having done that for years (how many will depend), you indeed reach a "competence" but not just in vocabulary and grammar, as a non-native can do as well, but a very complex competence by which the native speaker will always be distinguishable from a non-native speaker.
Sorry about the long reply. And I shouldn't really do it in this thread because the invited participants already share the same opinion but I believe some of these thoughts are important for our suggestions with respect to specifics of the verification process.
Bernhard
[Edited at 2012-08-07 04:12 GMT]
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Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
e message that so many of us have been trying to get across is that even the very highest level of proficiency in a language does not make it your native language, if you have not been living and breathing that language from earliest childhood to the present day. [/quote]
While I agree with your premise, I can’t agree with your conclusion. Your conclusion would basically strike out a significant portion of Canada (and I presume the United States) even if a significant portion of that can’t use their first language as a native language and is by all practical purposes native English speakers.
| | | | Phil Hand
Cina
Local time: 13:26
Da Cinese a Inglese
| Can you explain that? | Aug 7, 2012 |
Ambrose Li wrote:
Your conclusion would basically strike out a significant portion of Canada
Ambrose, if you could explain this a little more, I think it would help me to understand better where some of the opposition is coming from. I cannot understand what your sentence above means. How would someone be "struck out" if we say that English is not their native language? Canada is a famously tolerant place. Neither Canadian law nor the majority of Canadian citizens would think that someone's first language being Chinese or Spanish is a reason to "strike them out". To turn it round, I live in a country where I'm not a native speaker of the official language. I don't feel "struck out".
I would like to understand where you're coming from, because I think for most of us Brits, native language is not an emotional thing. But it seems that it does raise great passions in people from other parts of the world. I would like to be sensitive and work around that, but I honestly don't know why it generates such heat.
Do you mean that if you say to a Chinese (for example) immigrant to Canada that English is not his native language, then he's going to understand it as an attack on his identity?
| | | | | suggestions for verification procedure | Aug 7, 2012 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
1. The member should state why he/she believes that that language is their native language. I suggest that the selection page contains a number of reasons that the member can select from, as well as a text form for additional comments.
I agree. I would see this as the first step (prequalification)
And it's easy to introduce (even retroactively). Some of the reasons could be taken from Janet's questionnaire.
There could be factors built in that prevent one right away from claiming a native language.
What I want to know is what happens to me, a verified speaker of German? I'd say I should keep my verified status and have to "re-verify" in order to keep it.
Actual verification.
Option 1:
A a conversation with at least 2 native speakers in person at a powwow
B a video call with 2 native speakers (recorded)
C a chat (typed) online (identity verification is important here); recorded
Option 2:
Evaluation of forum posts in claimed language by two verified peers; Proz.com would contact verified native speakers (not participating in the forum thread) to evaluate the forum posts.
As far as essays are concerned that claimants could be asked to write, they don't put the applicant into this relative "spontaneous" response situation that exists in a conversation or, to a lesser degree, a forum here, and spontaneous/creative use of the language is the most logical direction we should be headed with our suggestions for verification.
If essay at all, the applicant would have to write it online and clearly couldn't know what the topic is. But that is the least fool-proof method, as far as I'm concerned.
What we should not forget is that we want to "only" check how (= idiomatic usage, syntax, vocab) and, to a certain degree, how well (basic grammatical structure) the applicant uses the language.
B
[Edited at 2012-08-07 23:58 GMT]
| | | | | I have a great idea | Aug 7, 2012 |
Just ask the people one question -- in which language they would like to have all the materials before a serious operation, let's say, given to sign, in which language they would like to get legal advice if or financial advice -- this is their real native language, L1 or not.
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XXXphxxx (X)
Regno Unito
Local time: 06:26
Da Portoghese a Inglese
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| Good question | Aug 7, 2012 |
On a side note: what verification methods does the current system have in place? I'm merely asking because I've declared a single native language (and a small one at that:)) and my 'N' is still gray. Is it because I'm new or because I'm a non-paying user? Or both?
There seem to be a lot of bugs in the system. My understanding was that one language was automatically marked as “verified” with a yellow/blue icon. Some users have pointed out that even paid members are still displaying grey icons. I suggest you submit a support request and do let us know the answer.
I feel claims to second languages would confuse matters further as questions would then arise as to what actually constitutes a “second language”. While anything other than native languages are not used as filters for jobs or in directory searches, I'm not sure there would be much benefit either. There is enough room in the "About me" section for people to advertise their proficiency in their various languages and of course people are still free to offer any language pairs they wish. As I’ve mentioned in my most recent post on the “other” thread, when push comes to shove on other sites (that only have one option for a native language, others requiring further verification) people do know what their native language actually is. They use this site to exploit this very loophole.
Finally, Kalina I might add that you always get top marks for courtesy. Thank you
| | | | Diana Coada (X)
Regno Unito
Local time: 06:26
Da Portoghese a Inglese
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
We agree what native language means (the language acquired from a specific point on in your childhood (there is a cut-off age)...
Bernhard
[Edited at 2012-08-07 04:12 GMT]
Many of you seem to be saying that a person who born in Spain and left the country at 10/15 and then lived in Germany for 20/30/40/50 years is a native Spanish speaker. Sorry, but I don't agree.
@Lisa
If you were raised bilingually in Brazil from the age of 1 how can you say Portuguese is not your native language??? Doesn't that contradict your own definition of native?
| | | | | Take it to the other/another thread | Aug 7, 2012 |
I thought I'd take the liberty of posting a little reminder that this thread is about METHODS FOR VERIFYING "NATIVE LANGUAGE" CLAIMS . . . ONLY
All other topics and tangents really deserve their own thread.
[PS: Those who don't want to encourage other posters to go/stay off topic might be wise not to respond to them on those other topics in this thread]
| | | | psicutrinius
Spagna
Local time: 07:26
Membro (2008)
Da Spagnolo a Inglese
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AVVIO ARGOMENTO
PLEASE NOTE EVERYBODY
This thread is addressed ONLY to those who agree that, yes, native language claims should be verified, and who propose methods/ways of so doing.
I will say it again: THOSE WHO DISCUSS WHETHER IT SHOULD BE VERIFIED OR NOT HAVE NO PLACE HERE.
This is part of the post opening this thread
Your post does NOT belong here, according to the very same purpose for which it has been opened.
Therefor... See more PLEASE NOTE EVERYBODY
This thread is addressed ONLY to those who agree that, yes, native language claims should be verified, and who propose methods/ways of so doing.
I will say it again: THOSE WHO DISCUSS WHETHER IT SHOULD BE VERIFIED OR NOT HAVE NO PLACE HERE.
This is part of the post opening this thread
Your post does NOT belong here, according to the very same purpose for which it has been opened.
Therefore, please: Stick to the subject and either post methods for verifying "native language claims" or go elsewhere -or open YOUR OWN thread.
Thanks very much ▲ Collapse
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XXXphxxx (X)
Regno Unito
Local time: 06:26
Da Portoghese a Inglese
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| Offer Browniz to: | Aug 7, 2012 |
1) Existing Certified Ps
2) Registered on the site for more than 3 years
3) Members of a recognised professional association (proof must be provided)
to conduct verifications.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Paesi Bassi
Local time: 07:26
Membro (2006)
Da Inglese a Afrikaans
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psicutrinius wrote: LilianBoland wrote:
Just ask the people one question -- in which language they would like to have all the materials before a serious operation, let's say, given to sign, in which language they would like to get legal advice if or financial advice -- this is their real native language, L1 or not. This thread is addressed ONLY to those who agree that, yes, native language claims should be verified, and who propose methods/ways of so doing. ... Your post does NOT belong here, according to the very same purpose for which it has been opened.
Hey, I have a great idea about HOW TO VERIFY a person's native language. Simply ask him in which language he would be happy to receive materials to sign before e.g. a serious operation, or in which language they prefer to get legal advice if or financial advice. I hope this suggestion is on-topic...
| | | | | On what basis? | Aug 7, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote:
1) Existing Certified Ps
2) Registered on the site for more than 3 years
3) Members of a recognised professional association (proof must be provided)
to conduct verifications.
How does being a Certified P or a member of the site for more than 3 years automatically qualify a person to sit in judgement of another translator?
Proz is a commercial website and as such has no authority in any way to officially judge anyone. Proz may have their site-own incentives/programs, which however have little or no bearing on the real world, imo.
I am afraid the other forum has made me realise how hopeless the situation is. As nice as it would be to prevent bogus native language claims, I really don't see any foolproof method that will work. I think it's totally implausible to expect this sort of site to suddenly start to jostle people into being truthful. Those who are determined to lie will continue to find a way around it. Even if it's through pals confirming pals or other such collusion. We already see enough people who pal up on Kudoz.
Imo, if outsourcers/end clients see the translations are far below par and not idiomatic, jobs will eventually begin to swing away from those pretending to be who they aren't.
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