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This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
Nov 1, 2009 16:08
14 yrs ago
Dutch term

"De herdertjes Lagen bij nachte"

Dutch to English Other Religion Kerstlied
Wij kennen allemaal dit kerstliedje. Vraag is: Wat is de titel hiervan in het Engels op dezelfde muziek? Hieronder wel een vertaling maar de muziek klopt niet!
1. While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks
While shepherds watched their flocks by night, All seated on the ground, The angel of the Lord came down, And glory shone around, And glory shone around. ...
www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/s/wshepwtf.htm
Proposed translations (English)
3 Tune = Cranbrook /'On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at.'

Discussion

L.J.Wessel van Leeuwen (asker) Nov 3, 2009:
Thanks Tina, that is the conclusion I reached too! het onmogelijk, blijft onmogelijk!
Tina Vonhof (X) Nov 2, 2009:
There is none Sure the words can be translated but to my knowledge, there is no equivalent English Christmas carol with those words and that tune. There are other Dutch Christmas songs that have no English equivalent, e.g., "Nu sijt wellekome".
L.J.Wessel van Leeuwen (asker) Nov 2, 2009:
I found at least two other translations for " De herdertjes Lagen bij nachte". So the question surely must be: Which is the right one? This being so, logic would dictate that one would try and establish which one is correct. Or not? All have one thing in common: they are sung! Therefore surely the one that is sung with the same music would be right, isn't it? Or am I stupid... So the question is not a musical question as suggested. None provided me with the same music. Anyhow as no one can help, I have contacted my Principal who has suggested I just use the translation I gave earlier. He will draw his client's attention to the problem. Thanks anyhow for trying... I will close the question without marking it.
Dr Lofthouse Nov 1, 2009:
Basically, the question is 'listen to this link, and tell me what the tune is' - so it isn't a translation question at all. The text posted does translate as 'Whilst shepherds watched their flocks by night', but this has been set to many tunes (see Wikipedia reference and LJWvLs links), one of which was the same as 'on ikley moor baht'at according to Wiki entry:) .
Dont really think this is a language translation question therefore, more of a music quiz.
philgoddard Nov 1, 2009:
I'm still confused. Is Dr Lofthouse's "Cranbrook" not the answer to your question?
Dr Lofthouse Nov 1, 2009:
Perhaps you should have posted this under 'Music'?
L.J.Wessel van Leeuwen (asker) Nov 1, 2009:
Click on this link and you will hear the music used by Dutch people when singing the carol "De herdertjes Lagen bij nachte "http://www.liedjesland.com/Liedjes/Kerstliedjes/DeHerdertjes...
You bet I won't use this title "On Ilkley Moor baht 'at".
Whe I click on the link I gave you I definitely hear the handel music...
And yes, I am still looking for the correct title to the correct music. Like Stille Nacht, Heilige Nacht sung in Dutch, English etc all use the same notes and music. The music goes with the words and v.v.
philgoddard Nov 1, 2009:
Like I said, I'm sorry if I'm being stupid, but I didn't hear any music when I visited that site so I wasn't sure what you were talking about. Anyway, this is not a translation question, and I hope you're not going to gloss "De herdertjes lagen bij nachte" as "On Ilkley Moor baht 'at".
L.J.Wessel van Leeuwen (asker) Nov 1, 2009:
I thought that my question was cristal clear... There is a Xmas carol in Dutch called "De herdertjes Lagen bij nachte". Ask any Dutchman to sing ot for you and the notes that he will use are not the same that good old Handel uses as is played on the link http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/w/s/wshepwtf.htm
Hence the question: Does anyone know the translation of the words in English that will be sung using the same notes as a Dutchman would?
Are you saying that the words of the title you suggest: "While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks by Night" can be sung using the same notes that a Dutchman would use when he sings "De herdertjes Lagen bij nachte" ???
philgoddard Nov 1, 2009:
Sorry if I'm being stupid, but I don't understand your question. It's called While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks by Night in English. And is this really a translation question?

Proposed translations

24 mins

Tune = Cranbrook /'On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at.'

'The hymn tune Cranbrook was written for the words in 1805 by Canterbury shoe-maker Thomas Clark and named after the local village of Cranbrook.[1] It is now better known in the UK as the tune of On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at.'

'On Ilkla Moor Baht 'at.' is written in a UK English dialect (Yorkshire)

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Note added at 26 mins (2009-11-01 16:35:29 GMT)
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But various 'tunes' have been used to fit the lyrics: the Wiki entry also says...
"In the United Kingdom and Canada the standard is the alternative arrangement using the music "Winchester Old", originally from Este's psalter, the Whole Book of Psalmes, from 1592 but arranged by William Henry Monk sometime before 1874."

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Note added at 27 mins (2009-11-01 16:36:10 GMT)
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It has been set to numerous other tunes, most commonly "Martyrdom", written by Hugh Wilson in 1800 but with an arrangement by Ralph E. Hudson from around 1885, and "Shackelford" by Frederick Henry Cheeswright from 1889. Parish organist at All Saints church, Oldham, Lancs., Robert Jackson, wrote a tune to "While Shepherds watched their flocks by night" in 1903 for the Westwood Moravian Churchthere. Called "Jackson's Tune" it remains popular there. In Cornwall, England the carol is popularly sung to "Lyngham", a tune usually associated with "O For A Thousand Tongues To Sing!"

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Note added at 31 mins (2009-11-01 16:40:05 GMT)
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oops, should have posted this in the reference section - apologies

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Note added at 39 mins (2009-11-01 16:48:41 GMT)
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so, the translation is 'while shepherds watched their flocks by night', but there are many different tunes to which this is sung
Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/While_Shepherds_Watched_Their_Flocks

Note from asker:
I saw this before I put the question to ProZ. The MUSIC is not the same as the music when it is sung in Dutch.
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