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Glossary entry

German term or phrase:

So sehr er..., so sehr er...

English translation:

However much...

Added to glossary by Edwin Miles
Aug 21, 2014 09:43
9 yrs ago
German term

So sehr er..., so sehr er...

German to English Art/Literary Idioms / Maxims / Sayings idiomatic German
This is not so much a translation of a term as of a structure. I've got a couple of sentences with a similar form:

So sehr er Actherbahnen hasste, so sehr freute er sich auf die andere Attraktionen.
So sehr sie die Zauberkunst perfektioniert hatte, so bescheiden waren ihre Fertigkeiten, wenn es um...

Basically, I'm struggling to find an equally elegant English structure, something along the lines of "As much as he hated rollercoasters..."

Am I fighting a losing battle? For me, the main thing for me here is to try to keep the "parallel elegance" (I guess you could call it) of the "so sehr/so sehr" and "so sehr/so bescheiden" structure.

All help appreciated!
Proposed translations (English)
3 +8 However much...
4 +2 As much as he hated (smtg), he loved (smtg) just as much.
3 ...(verb) was as (adjective) as his/her (verb) was (adjective)...
3 Much to the same degree
3 For all [his] ... [he] still ...
3 -1 The stronger/greater his dislike of rollercoasters,..
4 -2 The more he..., the more he...

Discussion

billcorno (X) Aug 23, 2014:
contrasting viewpoints Since these are wide discrepancies, how about," on the one hand, he fervently hated rollercoasters, yet on the other hand..."

Just another view.
Björn Vrooman Aug 22, 2014:
Good morning! And thank you!

Yes, the second half of your sentence does sound better. To me, "Attraktionen" sounds a bit stilted in German too, I have to say.
Yorkshireman Aug 22, 2014:
Moin Björn My take on this - a slight modification

Much as he hated big dippers, he actually did look forward to the fun of the fair.

I personally find "attractions" a little dull - fun of the fair automatically includes rides, sideshows, candy floss, toffee apples, fat ladies, strong men....
Björn Vrooman Aug 22, 2014:
@Edwin and Yorkshireman Edwin, I cannot offer you parallel elegance - but based on Yorkshireman's answer I could suggest the following: inversion + emphatic contrast.

Perfect as she was with her magic tricks, she did less than well when it came to...

Note that "perfektioniert hatte" means that she is already perfect in it.

And:

Much as he hated rollercoasters, he did look forward to the other attractions.

I think that's the only way to make it sound somewhat alike in terms of elegance.

@Yorkshireman What do you think about it?
Horst Huber (X) Aug 21, 2014:
This brings to mind the character in "La Peste", who keeps revising the first sentence of his masterpiece and never gets to the second. For Björn´s "sosehr" I would certainly put "much as".
Ramey Rieger (X) Aug 21, 2014:
@Yorkshireman That's called editing!

@Clive - delightful alliteration!
Clive Phillips Aug 21, 2014:
Maybe no 'one size fits all' rendering? In equal measure, he loathed rollercoasters and was delighted by other attractions. Her mastery of magic matched the modesty of her skills in...
Yorkshireman Aug 21, 2014:
Re: Dear Björn It is always refreshing to read how some - unfortunately very few - people consider language to be both Werkzeug und Spielzeug (hier, eher Teufelszeug)
Björn Vrooman Aug 21, 2014:
@Ramey Not sure how to take that. I'm going to pretend it said innovative instead of idiosyncratic.

The trouble here is that the usual German expression is "sosehr" as a conjunction. It's one word, not two but it used to be written as two.

Edit:
Sosehr er auch die Achterbahnen hasste, so sehr freute er sich doch auf die anderen Attraktionen.

Sosehr sie die Zauberkunst auch perfektioniert hatte, so bescheiden waren doch ihre Fertigkeiten, wenn es um...

It's more like:
As much as he hated rollercoasters, he did actually like the other attractions.

But I guess loathe works fine, too.

You do have to admit that "equal intensity" especially regarding the second sentence is a bit hard to achieve: If something is perfect, the opposite is not imperfect but total failure. That's where I think Yorkshireman's answer is hitting the nail on the head when he speaks of "only modest".
Yorkshireman Aug 21, 2014:
Correction - Ooops, EDITING I am just as much amazed by your lengthy discourses as I am much amused... :-) To preserve the equilibrium (grin)
Ramey Rieger (X) Aug 21, 2014:
Dear Björn I am as much amazed by your lengthy discourses as I am amused by your idiosycratic conclusions. Keep up the good work!
Björn Vrooman Aug 21, 2014:
Two other examples... "So sehr er die Ruhe und das Alleinsein genoss, so sehr hasste er die absolute Einsamkeit."
Walter Scholz, Cosmetic Suicide

"So sehr er andere Fische ausjehret, so wenig lößt er sich selbst gerne fressen."
Onomatologia forestalis-piscatorio-venatoria

The second book is quite old, by the way. Now, in the first sentence, you could reduce it to: Obwohl er die Ruhe...genoss, hasste er die absolute Einsamkeit.

The second one as well: Obwohl er andere Fische verzehrt, lässt er sich selbst nicht gerne fressen.

The reasons why you should not get too focused on "so sehr" and the like (with Horst on this one): So sehr left and so sehr right cancel each other out as in mathematics; so sehr and so wenig is just another form because you use the same kind of verbs and not ones with an opposite meaning.

Thus, I am wondering whether loathe would be a bit strong and hate wouldn't do.
Ramey Rieger (X) Aug 21, 2014:
Hi Horst they amount to a whale of a discussion!
Horst Huber (X) Aug 21, 2014:
As much as I appreciate the native speakers' sense of style, I fail to see what is so elegant about the construction. Is it necessary to suggest a near quantifyable equality between the two emotional reactions or the attainment of skill levels? Or would it do to say that "much as" I appreciate the native speakers' touch, I still miss what the fine points here amount to?
Yorkshireman Aug 21, 2014:
If... ... you want to keep equal intensity, turn the whole sentence around.

He was really looking forward to the fun of the fair, even though he loathed big dippers.
Björn Vrooman Aug 21, 2014:
@Edwin This is not a word-for-word example Reposted because too much "traffic" on the discussion board.

Still, best starting point:
http://richtiges_gutes_de.deacademic.com/4745/sosehr___so_se...

Do not think that has something to do with equal intensity.

Consider: The opposite of "perfection" would be non-existant (complete inability). That will most likely not work. Her other skills may be pretty bad but she will not be a lost cause except for that one skill.

Kind of the same with the first sentence: you cannot take precise measurements of feelings, which is why this is only an approximation.

It's more like: Although he hated rollercoasters, he did like the other attractions.

I don't think there is a way to express the same idea in English using the same parallel structure here.
Ramey Rieger (X) Aug 21, 2014:
Stickler! (As you should be) Her magician's dexterity was as consummate as her taent for ... was flawed.
You have to make SOME concessions SOMEWHERE or it's not fluent: Her dexterity as a magician was as consummate as, as, as, as, as
Yorkshireman Aug 21, 2014:
Not magic "Her skills as a magician" or "Her conjuring skills"
Ramey Rieger (X) Aug 21, 2014:
Further His hatred of rollercoasters is as fervent/avid as his anticipation of the other attractions.
Ramey Rieger (X) Aug 21, 2014:
Her magic is as perfect as her .... is flawed this woud be turning it completely around, but would also work well.
Ramey Rieger (X) Aug 21, 2014:
Agree with Andrew In the first sentence, the intensity is equal, not opposing. "'He hated rollercoasters with the same enthusiasm as he anticipated the other attractions."
In the sencond case, I stick to my original idea.
Lancashireman Aug 21, 2014:
Two contrasting verbs (hated...loved) This changes the sentence quite significantly (freute sich auf = looked forward to). Is it justifiable to bend the meaning of the second verb in this way?
Andrew Bramhall Aug 21, 2014:
Despite? & "I think you have to change approach" Yorkshireman's sentence is flawed, in my opinion, and also it has to be 'hatred of', not 'hate of'; don't think 'much as' works as a comparison, 'in much the same way/ to the same level he was good at A , he was hopeless at B';
Helen Shiner Aug 21, 2014:
@Edwin Ok, not as complicated as I thought.
Edwin Miles (asker) Aug 21, 2014:
@Helen To answer your first question, I'm looking for a parallel EN phrasing to use within each sentence. I.e. taking the sentences separately. I don't necessarily need it to echo across the sentences (they're a couple of pages apart). So far, I'm tending toward polyglot45's construction, with the opposing verbs or adjectives.
Helen Shiner Aug 21, 2014:
Another suggestion He hated ... so much ... and yet ...
She worked on perfecting ... and yet ...
Yorkshireman Aug 21, 2014:
Despite? Despite his hate of big dippers, his love of other rides was sheer passion.
OR:
His hate for big dippers was only matched in intensity by his love for all the other rides.
Ramey Rieger (X) Aug 21, 2014:
Hi Edwin In AE, we would usually use the same structure as Andrew has provided, which loses your 'parallel elegance'. Here is another possibility:

His hatred of rollercoasters was as fervent as his enthusiasm for the other attractions.
As adept as she was at magic, so modest were her talents in/with/at...
polyglot45 Aug 21, 2014:
I think you have to change approach much as he HATED xxx, he LOVED (then the structure is based on the two extremes of feelings, two contrasting verbs)
much as he was SKILLED at, he was HOPELESS at (here it is the adjectives that show the contrast) - sorry 'she' was skilled, etc. not 'he' (I couldn't see the text as I was typing and I forgot that detail)
Helen Shiner Aug 21, 2014:
@Andrew and Yorkshireman Unless I'm missing something, I don't think that is what Edwin is asking.
Yorkshireman Aug 21, 2014:
Big dippers With the Swift answer on this (big dipper as a UK alternative)
Or:
Although he truly hated big dippers, he actually looked forward even more to all the other rides.
Lancashireman Aug 21, 2014:
"As much as he hated rollercoasters... ... he looked forward to the other attractions with (an) equal passion."
Helen Shiner Aug 21, 2014:
@Edwin Are you trying to find a parallel EN phrasing for use within each sentence or is just echoed from one sentence to the other?

Proposed translations

+8
3 hrs
Selected

However much...

However much he loathed big dippers, he was still very much looking forward to the other rides (attractions)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-08-21 13:11:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

However much she perfected her conjuring tricks, her skills remained only modest when it came to...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-08-21 13:20:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In Yorkshire dialect:
E cuddent be havin wi’ big dippers at all, but wor fair chuffed at’t chance to go ont t’other rahds at't feast.

Her cud practiss ‘n practiss er cunjerrinn tricks, but wor still nobbut midlin when’t time cum arahnd…


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2014-08-21 13:58:11 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

On Björn's suggestion:

However much he loathed big dippers, he was still really looking forward to the other rides (attractions)


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2014-08-21 14:26:05 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Another alternative- turned around:
He was really looking forward to the fun of the fair, even though he loathed big dippers.
Peer comment(s):
agree Cetacea
11 mins
Thank you
agree Björn Vrooman : Really like your second suggestion of "only modest"! It's not about equal parts here in my opinion (see discussion). Replace "very much" by "really" in your first sentence (so as to avoid repetition) and we have a double deal!
56 mins
Thanks, Björn
agree Armorel Young
1 hr
Thanks Amorel
agree Melanie Meyer
4 hrs
THX Melanie
agree Lancashireman : It seems that this is a fancy way of saying 'although'. Thanks to the German native speaker contingent for clearing that up.
5 hrs
Ta muchly!
agree Ramey Rieger (X) : I surrender!
6 hrs
Oh, Ramey.....
agree Nicole Schnell
7 hrs
Merci Nicole
agree David Moore (X)
21 hrs
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Ta muchly indeed, Yorkshireman!"
-1
52 mins

The stronger/greater his dislike of rollercoasters,..

the more he looked forward to ...

For the second sentence: "The greater her adeptness at ... appeared, the more modest by comparison her accomplishments at...looked
Peer comment(s):
neutral polyglot45 : this makes it into cause and effect which is not the case here
46 mins
cause and effect is precisely what it is; his/her dislike of one thing leads to a greater enjoyment in something else;
disagree Cetacea : "so sehr... so sehr..." means "as much as"; nothing to do with more or less intense emotions.
2 hrs
Something went wrong...
-2
1 hr

The more he..., the more he...

This might work for you in this instance.
Peer comment(s):
neutral polyglot45 : this makes it into cause and effect which is not the case here
11 mins
neutral Andrew Bramhall : That's 'desto mehr'...umso mehr';
1 hr
disagree Cetacea : "so sehr... so sehr..." means "as much as"; nothing to do with more or less intense emotions.
1 hr
disagree Lonnie Legg : for reasons above.
8 days
Something went wrong...
+2
3 hrs

As much as he hated (smtg), he loved (smtg) just as much.

my take on it.
Peer comment(s):
agree Cetacea
10 mins
Thank you, Cetacea.
neutral Ramey Rieger (X) : I'm not so fond of the repetition of much and three x as, but it captures the sense just fine.//Which works well in German, but not so well in English.
13 mins
Thanks Ramey, but "so sehr" is also repeated three times in close sequence... hence...
agree Ingeborg Gowans (X)
39 mins
Thanks, Ingeborg!
neutral Lancashireman : With Ramey. I have no idea why this clumsy formulation is attracting 'agrees'.
43 mins
Clumsy?... as is the original... unless the translation also implies editing...
neutral Helen Shiner : With Ramey; the point being that this repetition does not work stylistically in EN, even if it does in GER.
1 hr
Stylistically, it doesn't work in German either, imho, Helen...
neutral Björn Vrooman : The original structure may not look pretty to you but it is centuries old (see discussion). It does work in German. It's simply not to be translated word for word.//Didn't say I like it either. But it's literary writing - it's always a bit different.
2 hrs
Of course, one can always contemporize archaisms if that is the aim...
Something went wrong...
3 hrs

...(verb) was as (adjective) as his/her (verb) was (adjective)...

This is my suggestion for maintaining the basic structure and idea of the emotional/judgmental comparison.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2014-08-21 13:05:27 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the second (verb) cou just as well be a verb phrase.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2014-08-21 14:18:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

His loathing of rollercoasters was as avid/fervent as his anticipation of the other attractions.

Her dexterity with magic was as consummate as her housekeeping skills were flawed.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Yorkshireman : It seems we both love to loathe - like the puzzle as an answer!
1 hr
Something went wrong...
1 day 17 hrs

Much to the same degree

I think this mirrors the German structure best (comparison of equal intensity) without sounding too clumsy in English.

Much to the same degree he loathed rollercoasters, he looked forward to the other attractions.

Much to the same degree she had perfected the art of magic, her other skills were rather limited.
Something went wrong...
2 days 16 hrs

For all [his] ... [he] still ...

For all his dislike of rollercoasters, he still was looking forward to the other rides.
For all the perfection in her ..., her skills ... were rather modest.
Just to experiment with something different.
Something went wrong...
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